The Voices for Voices TV Show and Podcast Episode 55 with Guests, TherapyTwins Joan and Jane

Welcome to the Voices for Voices podcast sponsored by Redwood Living

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deductible and we also wanted to announce our third annual

Voices for Voices a brand-new day Gala fundraiser that will be happening on

Friday October 13th, 2023, from 6 30 to 8

30 p.m. Eastern Time at the Leona Ferris Lodge in the Stow

Silver Springs Park and the address for the location is 5027 Stow Road Stow Ohio 44224

the keynote speaker you have seen on a previous episode of our podcast is going

to be Mr. Dan flowers who is the president and CEO of the Akron-Canton

Regional Food Bank there's also going to be a recipient of the 2023 second annual Voices for Voices

ambassador of the year and the recipient for this year is the honorable Judge Alison Breaux

she is from The Smit County Court of Common Pleas, and she founded the Hope

Corps for individuals with felonies there will be music there will be

artwork there will be sign language interpretation from the Kent State University American sign language

English program there's going to be raffle baskets I mentioned artwork and all donation all

proceeds are going to go to individuals in our community who are battling addiction mental health and

accessibility tickets are on sale on voicesforvoices.org they are for an

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dollars both options are available, and you can find them again on our website

today I want you to join me in welcoming our guest from Coral Springs Florida

they are authors storytellers and therapists turn comedy influencers

they like to help people laugh their way to love more and fear less

they're twins they're the therapy twins Joan and Jane thank you for joining us

today oh thank you for having us thank you so much and you got our names correct okay

great wonderful not that that that's so wonderful

try absolutely I've actually messed up our names before people have said which

one are you Joan or Jane and I happen to be Joan and I said Jane and I don't

even know why I said it I think it comes out of the mouth very easily yeah

well again thank you for joining us today and for our viewers and our

listeners  can you maybe introduce yourselves  what brought you on the

the journey and the path  to therapy and then we can work ourselves into  more of the current state of you

know the comedy the literature how people  can find out about you and

support you sure  well did you mean

for our own therapy or the fact that we  well you could go the answer is the same

yeah, really,  I knew I'm the older twin okay I

don't know what I only said that because Joan identified her as the young self as the younger I don't I think did I

don't even recall but I and I don't know why the older twins even matters in my story, but it might to someone and that's

why I said it and anyway good save  on that look you know hindsight is 20 20.

so I never really knew what was wrong with me  growing up, but I knew that I never

smiled in my school photos and I and I knew that there was a song

this is just as too funny oh I don't even know what grade, but it was elementary school, and I don't really

know the song but Carol King right wrote a song

and the lyric some of the lyrics is you have to get up every morning with a

smile on your face and show the world all the love in your heart something like that and it goes on from there and

it's a great it's a great song that I think touches on the positive like

you've got to do that it's so positive can come back well I never listened to

the song the lyrics but I recognized it if I heard it, I would listen Maybe to

the music part but never lyrics so anyway I was very depressed growing up and just didn't know it I became a nurse

a registered nurse and of course in it finally in my senior year they started

more Psychiatry and  because I went to  a four-year

college to become a nurse and in our last year we did our psychiatric rotation, and I knew I just absolutely

knew and so that I was depressed mentally I mean I mean I gathered I

had a mix of anxiety and depression so anyway of course that's what they say about people sometimes we gravitate to

those professions to diagnose and treat yourself I know I concur with that so

there but we didn't go to college  we didn't finish nursing school together I ended up dropping out I

guess if I dropped out and I often like to tell people that I didn't finish my  bachelor's degree until I was thirty-five and

I did not finish my second master’s until I was forty-five. so if there's time in life for

everything so we were both therapists after registered nurses and we kind I

felt a little bit of the stigma within the profession as well and I that bugged

me it bugged me, and I didn't like the way people spoke about addicts because I

was also dating the person who suffered from addiction, and you know I had a

real problem with it so we decided after we heard this might be a mistake so I'm going to

take credit for this one because I love making mistakes because that's how I learn

 I thought I heard Vivek Murphy the Surgeon General when I believe Obama was

President and I believe what he it was some sort of press conference and I believe somebody related to him suicided

and he was so upset with the mental health in this country that he said that's so great if a football player a

billionaire an actress you know all these people that are have a support system because they're so famous they

come out with their mental illness they're still working for the most part A couple of people haven’t, but he said

until the people in the profession come out like what's going on statistically people in the profession also suffer

because otherwise statistics aren't correct, so we said well we'll do that, and we made it a comedy because we

grew up in a comedy yes, we did I and the depressed one you know I was so depressed hindsight again I thought my

goodness I had so much around me to help me but I

you know I had a lot of negative qualities that I mean that I could say but I don't have to bore people to tears

so I wasn't picking up on all the hor in the home it was wonderful even though

I was making a lot of the hor with my father I had extreme negativity and can you

imagine that compounded we had our own language when we were born, and you know

no one could get into the house we hear from our aunts and uncles that we were like Watch Dogs we didn't want anyone in

the house except for and this is odd except for our mom

got locked out of the house she went to get the mail and she was so frightened to death since her birth that she locked

the door when she went to get the mail, but she forgot the key and we were infants on the floor in diapers and the

fire department had to be called and they had to act or whatever their way

in and our mother said how could they she was talking to the relatives how did they not cry like one bit so

firefighters that's who we should have married yeah, I can't believe that firefighters we loved them apparently

so did we share enough yeah and I

it's interesting that people to hear people in in the field

have that a little bit of that that stigma too because I've often wondered

what they what they think and how they think and then secondly

hearing stories and experiences day after day that that if I'm just thinking

for me that would really be tough to not bring some of that baggage home but

everywhere you go yes you know you have to work your way up as a therapist to

have those long sessions for an eight or longer hour day I remember one time

 my boss asked me how did how many hours did I want to start out with and I

was a single mom and I said oh I have to go four he chuckled at me, and he said taught me

that I had to work my way up to that and then there are ways that you sort of protect yourself from the negativity or

you're absolutely right yeah, you'll absorb that and go home with it but

there's something really it is built in in the education of therapists that whenever

you overly liked someone or overly dislike someone that is the important

time to seek your own mentors out okay  you know figure that out because you

never want to be judgmental to a patient right especially in Psychiatry and you

know I say especially and that's true absolutely everywhere you know I did some medicine and it's absolutely true

there too what was the what was maybe the toughest part of

be becoming a therapist was it the different I would say  the different

mental health challenges learning all those  if you were a prescriber because I'm just I'm just wondering like what going

through my life that kind of is similar to yours and the challenges and

ups and the Downs  you know how we actually did prescribe as well

 I guess was that difficult that we were math Majors too okay and then I

have another Masters in forensic science so sometimes the prescribing and the mathematics of all of that and the

interactions if you didn't catch it the pharmacist, they were your best friend pharmacists

are so knowledgeable for  including me if I go into the  Pharmacy to get a medication I am

thrilled at how much they know so  what was that question well I think one of the hardest  things to do yeah

prompt my memory well I mean so coming from I that's I realize now why I

wanted to share my depression  if we back up to Jane and Joan we were

born in 1960 okay premature not expected to survive so I

imagine back in the sixties the neonatal Intensive Care Unit was not

as advanced and it was not until sometime in the seventies when nurses decided

that in the NICU if I could call it that  that mothers and fathers are

extremely important or whoever the primary caregivers are to this baby

they're so important they need to touch these babies so yes can we back up to

1960 so we spent 30 days which doesn't sound like a lot but bonding with an

infant is extremely important for both People's Health and  the other thing is for 30 days thirty

days we were in separate incubators, and I don't know if they allow infants in a

NICU to be in twins to be in the same but I've read multiple articles with the

hand touch including an identical or fraternal twin is extremely important so

I know that well I'm going to speak for both of us we do share some anti-social personality traits sorry yeah so maybe

the biggest thing for me and I hope none of my former clients are listening because I adore it here, I adored every

single one of them and if I did not, I got a lot of help so that I could fake

it till I did like them okay so anyway we have these anti-social

type personality traits and  and where are we going, I'm going with to be a

therapist there's all this empathy and give me gentlemen I have read that

 women well men and women and everyone in between everyone has a different

style of how they listen, and process and Joan and I have realized it hands down

we have ADHD of course I was primarily an attentive and Joan can share her I

don't want to I was too active

unsatisfactory and self-control bad on my report card I mean I didn't even know it I didn't even know that

and we think that add may have been being treated back then just a little

bit right but they were always a little the little boy they never really looked at the little girl yet

 so neither one of us got any treatment because  the inattentive type of my grades were

so good they no one thought anything they thought I was reading and comprehending what I was reading and

that's she knows how to skim very well and there was something back in the seventies called Cliff Notes wow was that

wonderful I learned yes yeah that was how they first treated us I think anyway where was this going oh, I'm not

sure if was it empathy you said something about empathy, I thought we were talking about what was one of the

most difficult things for me it was practicing the art of empathy it was

difficult you know you have to appear concerned oh yeah and if you don't well

I think I was very concerned but what I used to do because I'm that I was a

comedian I wanted to be a comedian I wanted to do all kinds of things when I was younger a model because we were so

tall  but my anxiety got in the way in fact in school when they tested us and they

said come on just answer these questions with honestly and it will come out what you would be what you would work at like

for a job and mine came out Jet Pilot so I said perfect I'll do that but then I realized I get air sick that wasn't

gonna go well either so I couldn't do it, so I followed I'm the younger twin I just followed her, and I wanted to go

into advertising but in the seventy-eight is when we graduated 1978 like anyone would

graduated high school graduated high school  in in the

middle class upbringing we had in the area of Connecticut we grew up in I felt

I had three choices a nurse a school teacher or a secretary and I chose nurse

just I hated high school so much there was no I couldn't imagine going back yeah, I just couldn't even, and I hated it

because I think the anxiety and the depression

and you know I didn't know how to talk to anybody oh I had very few memories and I'm so grateful for the handful of

people on Facebook that are so nice to me that we all went to high school together it's lovely right

what go ahead yeah go ahead no I don't think I don't think story you go

curious about your thoughts on the early diagnosis and life and life given

that like you mentioned that younger girls baby girls it you know it

weren't looked at because you had the grades you know growing up you had had the grades and so maybe that wasn't

the indicator that was checked so it's like okay well we don't have to worry about her in this particular area

 and the reason I was just kind of your opinions  because I'm I learned when I was thirty-five  now a lot of

that I balled up inside and didn't want to deal with and maybe there were signs

and people trying to help me towards that or not but  some something that I

I get asked often is like you know what do you mean you didn't know you had autism you know low

Spectrum autism until you're at 35 you know that should have been diagnosed before you were ten or before these

certain ages and  and I kind of let that just roll off the side of me because so many people

brought it up and now it's becoming a little bit more I want to say a little bit more common, but more people are talking about

you know find out a little bit later what are your thoughts if somebody may

be getting those you know good grades and they're kind of passing all those tests but maybe they do have some of

those feelings of what should they do

I think both ways here I think there's positives and negatives once you diagnose what happens in Psychiatry

anyway once somebody's diagnosed that person is pushed aside now, they're

labeled and it is very easy once you're labeled for Mean Girls

you know people who maybe didn't have that art of empathy learned or talked to

then I heard Hans had to be taught empathy monkeys I read a long time ago I

cannot find that article that monkeys had it innately I know I thought wow but

we're and so when you get labeled and then then you're prejudiced against, and I that I don't like and when people come

to  therapy what they well I always told everybody but they a lot of people said

oh I only went a few times to therapy, so I never had a diagnosis and I'm thinking the therapist didn't get paid unless

they put a diagnosis in so yeah you were diagnosed and it's gonna pop up

somewhere at least in Connecticut because that's where we practiced so there were diagnoses you could pick that

was a reaction to stress or lifestyle but I cried after I retired and had time

to read a book which is because our book is about our traumas, so we have in a

lighthearted way we got we were diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder very late like thirty-five and

for me, the unfortunate words I didn't get treatment until I was thirty-five. so anyway

 about I don't know where I was going with that either no that's good because I

mean I was thirty-five or around when kind of that that came in and just processing it

is one thing but how did your life's experiences lead to publish a book

because not everybody has that kind of insight them to be able to tell the story especially two chicks with

attention deficit disorder it was some type of process for us it's other people

right with ease for us with the add honest to goodness we are in  paper

and pencil still well that's probably our age and then we tear things out we don't even want to erase it's a pen and

then you got to put arrows in it yeah for us it was difficult you know you know what I think it was what was that I'm pretty sure I didn't come up with

the idea I mean why would I someone that has such trouble I'm a rebel I want

I know that  we wanted to write a book well Joan came

up with the idea right because we just wanted more people to have access to

some of this stuff because we the feedback we got from our book which is

Forty pages maybe I don't even know how many pages originally yeah, I don't know we put it back up again as different

pages now it has it  prevented two suicides that we

know of oh I forgot so it may I mean and preventing one was good enough for us we

knew we wanted other people to share this you know this twin thing is pretty funny

too  you know we practice together we had our

own practice and you know Jane had her own office I had my own office, but you know clients couldn't tell us apart and

then it got very comedic because people would say Joan, I don't know my clients

always talked about weight and in in mental health you talk about a holistic approach if you're a nurse practitioner

because a nurse's whole thing is holistic, you're never just gonna do neck

up yeah what did you used to call it something anyway I was always funny, but people would always say to me I'm the

thinner twin and they would say Joan there's zero percent chance that I am discussing weight with you but when Jane

has a minute I would you know I'll discuss it with her so without was funny it was  sex food wow and  there was

something else I'm sure parenting that they always wanted to speak with Jane because I obviously it was so obvious I

had no children the way I spoke to them and on my end and I probably have more

experience dating than Joan but some relationship issues they want if

they wanted Jones opinion like difficulty with sex sometimes

you know run by what it was with Jones,  and you know I'll say she was Kinder

I mean she's had  longer lasting  loving relationships than I've had so

I've had maybe some female friends man that's because I don't have any issues

with females that I know of but anyway God gave me a male cat my first male cat

and then  prior to that my son and I adore men now okay because now I'm

really telling my clients that I didn't like them, and I when I absolutely loved all of them but getting back to the book

which is called under the hood, and we thought you know under our hoods if it

was  a car we were thinking I don't know like to coming out with our mental illness I think somebody helped us with

that time oh of course the editor Dallas thank you wow that was weird I'm usually

the one who's so generous let's go back to the twin thing maybe I

wouldn’t not have done it if I was a single person but because you have a twin for me

I always know that I'll never be alone I mean unless she gets hit by a car suddenly, but I won't be alone because

it's I have her so I think you're more heroic sometimes because you can do

things well you know things like that and that's what we did so we came out with our Illness, but our upbringing was

hilarious and most people have said that they have fallen off their chair because

they really aren't it's like the Anthony Jones expense yeah it was pretty funny

and they didn't they were so like they were hesitant to say it because with if you read it Joan has had  in

my opinion worst trap when somebody thought I did but I don't think so anyway it's really cute and then at the

end what we do is we give  the tips that had helped us may not help you but even those tips are so ADHD friendly

because I would have a hard time working a manual a self-help manual or a class

at this point it's just oh yeah nobody I mean do you really work for a living they don't have as much time these days

so that's what we did

put it out on Amazon it's and it's amazon.uk please we may don't even ask

don't even ask it's just a wonder it came out wonderful I'm so happy because the UK we actually had two jobs in the

UK yes when America wouldn't put us because I think America's hesitant with mental illness, we're a young country

anyway it's on Amazon and at the very end I believe it's twenty-four if you think that

older women have words of wisdom after our life experience because believe me our life was very negative thirty-five and under

and then going forward it's a little better so it's words of wisdom cards you know like pay at the pp or pay later

but we explain it where can  not only the book

but how can people follow you and follow what what's coming next on every

social media we are therapy twins okay and apparently people on Twitter thought

we were rap artists because they said no the rappy Twins and I guess that does spell out I think there should have been

an extra P but no we're therapy twins one word and you'll see we look

identical we dress alike now it's that incubator thing they don't do that anymore you know the public they don't

know that you're not gonna get bombarded by twins like this that people might start to panic like oh no two of them oh

not for this long one time we had run into a handful of identical twins that

both were security guards for example both were done you know the restaurant

business both were doctors in fact our doctor not our not our mother's

obstetrician but our fam our pediatrician was also an identical twin

and so we hit the newspapers in 1960 yeah just to look like a little Carnival

act yeah it was a freak show it wasn't it but anyway what how happens is remember the nurses intervened in the

Seventies and said babies need to touch each other and mommies daddies Etc. need to

touch their babies it's all that so that hand touch and they don't separate twins as early in school anymore so

you're not going to have this retiree you know senior center right here right

here and we dress alike to avoid an argent usually because I don't understand and where she got the scarf

and you know now the store doesn't carry it so that's a problem but the other thing it does every single time we exit

 sorry our whatever this a condo is it puts a smile on at least one person's

face and offers  almost everywhere we go strangers are speaking to us

and laughing and laughing and again if we can prevent any sadness to the worst

outcome that's what we are here to do oh because our names Jane looks up names

and spiritual meanings and Jane's very spiritual and I'm trying so hard she'll say to me sometimes how many more signs

do you need that there is a heaven and I do I need a couple more but then I do I

tease her with because if she says well I just I just would rather be in be in the ground and

I'm like be careful be careful what you're affirming Joan yeah, I changed

that up I believe fantastic fungi I think really helped me believe

that there's an afterlife anyway  right I hope you remember yeah, I did

doubt did you remember what we were talking smiles yeah no it's when we go out oh Jane looks up names

and what it means yes so, we were reflecting back upon what our names meant and you know our names actually

mean gift from God can you believe that so we're gifting a lot of things yeah

yes, we try very hard to gift back yes someone like some of the

similarities  like you both write what the left or right hand or right-handed

growth right-handed okay  well I don't I guess we were I think see I was an artist, but I did different

art than Jane was more abstract, and I was very linear at least being kind to

me it's that she won the flag coloring on top in first grade or kindergarten

and I was simply devastated so I  so far, we had a period of time in her life

very unfortunate where she cut music out and I had a long period of time in my life I cut any type of art

drawing and stuff out and it's just not good for you to cut that out well as human beings we do things like that we

spite ourselves when we're in a cut off our nose argent or a hateful mode with

somebody else and then all of a sudden, it's you know I'm gonna give up music well I'll show who John who are you a

show you're truly hurting yourself music is actually a positive thing people heal better and laughter

actually I had a surgeon teach me that when he operated on my foot somehow, I

got into another accident where my toenail looked like the Leaning Tower of Pisa, and it needed to come off and I

thought no that can't happen so I he said come on in we'll take care of it and if that's only a torture you've

seen in movies you know so as a wonderful nurse because we are the worst

patients I was literally hugging I think the nurse who was nine months pregnant asking oh I hope I don't squeeze that

one out because it was going to hurt me and what I didn't see was he had like a

what looked like a pliers a needle nose pliers because our father's a carpenter and he told a joke well I

burst out laughing and he pulled the nail right during the heavy

laughter and then he's the one that cited the studies that showed you know that laughter is the best medicine

because it really is you can't feel physical or emotional pain

simultaneously with laughing and some guy who had rickets or something

extremely painful back in the day he  he has an article out and he's he

says about 20 minutes of laughter gave him an hour or more pain-free wow I know

well I had a client a young man that did I don't recall how many minutes of

laughter very cute he came up with this all on his own adorable

and well I knew, and  it was just to laugh every single day

and he was less depressed less anxious yeah, he noticed you know what I never

assessed was were his ADHD symptoms improved which I think they probably were but

that's I think it's because he moved away so quickly because he got better with laughter and I'm sure other things

of course yeah question yeah, I curious  so  with me being a

professor as you call it

I do have the ability to teach College stage students, and some come

come back into non-traditional way very various ages and reasons and I like

particular those students because they're they have more let me say experience and more, they're able to

share some of those experiences with some of the  some of the other students but I'm curious because

many of my students they're looking for out of school and even for internships

they're looking for you know the almighty dollar you know being assigned

to you know their job title and what they do versus

having that emotional tie to the profession and  from our conversation

today I'm just curious did you always have kind of that emotional tie to what

you wanted to do  because it seems like you're emotionally tied in with what besides

individually as the diagnosis and going through  going through the

mental side but from kind of a profession side have you always been

emotionally tied into whatever that was well I saw a show this is the younger

twin a show Barbara Walters was being interviewed and she had a very difficult

time getting into the  profession because she was a woman of Journalism profession and what her I believe it was

her grandfather told her that Barbara I don't care if you're if you get a job

emptying the trash in The Newsroom you be the best trash and emptier that

anyone has seen and you know I think back in our day people were more willing

to actually work for free and say hey I'll do this for free for a day and if I'm good you can hire me and I always

had that as a work ethic and I believe it came from our father, but our mother worked really hard too but our father

always spoke about it so  I also want to say that from professionally I

followed Jane I needed a job she told me that I could be a nurse and I said I can't be a nurse I'm not

that I if I could be one you could be, so she claimed all the  rotations and I

said wow Psychiatry and surgery I said I could do either and I picked Psychiatry and like Jane

and going through it I loved it back in the early eighties staff were so kind I had never seen

even a priest except that one guy fathered Bruni was so kind they shipped him back to Italy we all loved him I

hope he didn't do anything but anyway  the kindness back in the early eighties from

the top down you know you hear that trickle-down effect it does work in families and in  jobs, but I don't

believe it works in politics I think the tax system I think it works within a family system, so we were kind you

couldn't even restrain an individual unless they were they taught us that you can't hit certain pressure points you

know you have to be really good anyway fast forward average length of stay back

in the eighties for a mental illness was 10 months and you weren't in prison at this we

took people out to eat routinely because those things worked, we had them going to college  some people were in AAA

you had to go to meetings with them and people all thought I was  denying because I just used to say pass okay

anyway because you had to pretend you were just in there you could for confidentiality but fast forward average

length of stay at a major Hospital in Connecticut is 10 days that is not long

enough to reacclimate to the community you are speaking though of a long-term

psychiatric facility so a long-term the only not that I believe in it when we

look when we think of long-term in the current times it's mostly with people who suffer from addiction and as we know

they get approximately 30 days, and I don't know if the static the

statistics the statistics have changed Sirens  maybe 2 000

five-ish that out of one hundred people who entered a rehab

for addiction and completed their 30-day program one year later like one percent

where were still in recovery so the statistics are there that you know look

at the opiate crisis and so we're always to answer your question always been for the underdog since we were little, we

didn't really walk I guess until we were really late people thought 18 months old people thought we were odd and going

through school you know we had stuff done because you know oh you have a mole

on this side Jane had a mole on that side it was you were under a microscope I wanted it all to stop so we became

that book other book besides our book is wonderful and what made you could laugh but the other book that was number one

for PTSD I was gonna go back to the eighties in the eighties the DSM apparently or when it first

came out it had every diagnosis had a hand reaction to trauma schizophrenic

type a hand reaction to trauma bipolar type I never saw that DSM but because

it has changed it changed immediately apparently but the psychiatrist acted that way in the early eighties as nurses

you had to go in if somebody had  you know if it was same-sex or not

same sex you had to have a third person in the room to make sure whatever nothing happened so we would hear these

patients traumas and they really tried in the eighties to develop that but you

know late eighties business took over health care and the rest is his history it'll

be his it'll be his what isn't that a song I think it's something  a fairy tale I want to say the wizard

I just don't know but I hope we answered because we have been  passionate about

it and I guess we were passionate about being nurses so what really seems to be

well you know now that we're a lot older and we can reflect on it, and you know psychiatric nurses in the eighties

and retired in maybe 2020. now the

 everything is gone pet therapy music therapy art therapy not a

not in  some places there's a smilo has a  there's a smilo Cancer Center in New Haven Connecticut that I would

give an A plus and our dad did have a cancer but that is not what he passed from and he

we were honored that there was no beds in the main hospital, and he had to go into the  smilo, and he got superb care

and was amazing I think there's art there but anyway, so they get rid of all

these programs the outings especially that went immediately there was no more taking we took I took so many people

like that away five or six patients at the time to on a ski trip to Vermont

there were five staff that and you know I had to sleep with a key to the little Med box it was exciting and wonderful

for people to relearn which apparently is the way to go with PTSD is to re-learn how to be with others in

society and you're gonna change your brain now I'm not going to hardwire a to

c anymore I go to A to B to C and I will have a normal reaction instead of you

know screaming bloody murder or whatever I'm doing anyway I cried when I read the book

because the body keeps the score you think this part is  wonderful, I'll

take a pill I think we all forgot about the neck down and Bessel Vandal called

 doctor right yes yeah, he explains that  really amazing and there's an amazing

gentleman yes, I don't know if he's in Connecticut or not because we had done a podcast with him, and I thought he was

but he works with veterans, and he does exactly that where he takes these trap

traumatized veterans out and they do all the activities that you know a guy in

the Army a chick in the Army a Navy whatever they like whatever we're doing as I wanted to join the Air

Force and I never did but he does he takes people out and he they do the activities and that's exactly better in

a safe environment and I wish we could do more of that because if you look

there's a psychiatric patients  they're going into therapy or in

patient it's a revolving door people are spending too much time in therapy because the community isn't there to

support because we we've taken Community away and covet did that a little bit too

and I'm hoping that we aren't all like you know 9 11 we're all friendly I guess

and kind for a couple of months but people go back to their road rage and

they're not whatever they don't do and it's not even the people it comes from the top we need more Community oh

because you know what people forget oh that's a song Too people forget yes, I know that one yeah, I like that

 people forget that  it's not the masks is it an Eminence Front I'm joking

I don't know what I was gonna say oh well I hope I remember that people forget something oh I want to say that

don't forget that  when you're sitting in a chair and in therapy mm-hmm that's

wonderful but eventually you know because we tried to do groups as well and people are a little resistant

eventually one-on-one it probably isn't the best you know people used to say Joe

now I remember why I came to you because you know I made people laugh but I also made people cry because you should cry

in therapy actually I really should get it get it away now and then you can

leave it if you never cry or confront it pops out during holidays

trying to start a relationship now the guy hates you because you open your mouth our dad started crying at a TV

commercial I mean it does come out eventually yes yeah do you well I don't know so as a

having been prescribers  is that

becoming too big of a part of Psychiatry do just waiting

in your interview well not only in psychiatrists the entire  field of medicine we I did a

lot of medical nursing in the eighties and  you know the far I love medication I

would like to start with  when you need it  sometimes with you know you could do

your cognitive behavioral therapy more but you know a little Lexapro does help and we've been on that we've been on

meds I believe in them my son was immunized  blah blah blah, but  we have become a

pill nation and I don't think it's a hundred percent the pharmaceutical industry's fault

she wants a quick fix again it's probably if a sociologist or

anthropologists could come up with how we can slowly improve our society I think we really, it's the society

it's Insurance driven too because we were audited to the point where it's like I'm just gonna give up my license

yeah, it was grueling though and what the anthem excuse me I shouldn't have

mentioned that one well it was educational what they mentioned was you two were two of seven people seven

individuals eleven I think it was seven in the state that did both therapy and

medication that was becoming obsolete and if somebody had the morning a longer

visit oh she just said so if somebody has a 45-minute session yeah  you know insurance companies would

rather reimburse a 15-minute session they would just rather do that, so we got

audited to the point where they threatened to take all of our money back from unless we give gave them the

charts unfortunately what happened was we charted things that human beings that

we’re coming to us said that is not going out of this office and our hands were tied and it got ugly but it all

passed in flying qualities we had to cut up little pieces of paper and tape them

or posted redacted to redact with all the personal stuff that you put in there and you know

the if you don't put in sometimes the personal stuff could be a theme but again you know did, I want people to know

that I had to work at being empathetic you know like I don't I could tell the world now because it doesn't matter as

much and I remember observing my mother our mother hat wakes and

funerals and when I ever said to her mommy

you know exactly what to say to people that have suffered a loss I thought

that was amazing and I'm the psych nurse I'm like you are amazing

anyway I remember something good, good a lot of comedians have suicided and I

think that people mistake  somebody who's funny as never being suicidal and I would like to share

that I was suicidal I'm what I kept misinterpreting because I'm the younger

twin and I had a brain tor and at six months they had to operate and apparently, we've had family therapy

apparently, the therapist finally identified our family as everyone was

too involved in my life and I was always screaming at people to just let me be

but I liked that they said did you forget your phone don't forget your purse I kind of I liked that part so I

want to say with the kids she didn't like the part where someone was banging on the bathroom door every two seconds

yeah, like people got concerned if I was like whatever yeah anyway no one thought I was suicidal, and it was almost

annoying that no one wanted to help me, so you know that being said I want to say

I was suicidal the first time I was suicidal I actually didn't have the

right plans because  I had heard benzodiazepines were safe in overdose and I didn't have any of

those so I didn't know what to do but then as a when I got my masters

they have been saving overdoses not everybody so what did you want to take

pills well no one would prescribe me a benzo for so long that Jane had to teach

me and role play when I went to another psychiatrist so that I could actually be

medicated what I felt properly because I got two master's degrees on Xanax Ativan

or Klonopin or a combo of two of them and it was wonderful for me it was the I

cried when I first took it because I could not believe that other human beings existed without that Energy

System I thought I was plugged in to an outlet inside my body like I really it

was bad anyway I feel sorry for my organs because I didn't get held until I was three, I didn't coach you because I

would have had to have sat in and done the session as you and I know what I did was I sent her to a

prescriber that was  friendly with those types of medicines because not everybody is right and we

got in trouble and we were prescribing them our background was we're Rebels back in

the day those psychiatrists most of them are dead now that were our mentors so we

were we were big Believers in benzos because you get on them do you become addicted absolutely you become addicted

but there is a way to come off them or a way to help prevent the addiction long

term but I needed them more than once a day so I and then I did with I detoxed

myself because I had a lot of detox experience why don't you tell them about addiction and how they don't get any care

yeah, please do oh well you know what Doug Bruce said

speaking of the stigma even within the profession but hopefully

everybody is doing you know when they do have those feelings, I hope everybody is getting help from their mentors their

peers or being confronted by their peers yes or you know but within the whole

system like I said I've done medicine too  there's this wonderful psychiatrist

 that I didn't even hear him speak Joan did and she told me what he said

and what he said was if a diabetic  gets symptomatic and even a diabetic

that you know Joan and I there was something about us that so many of our clients shared things with us that they

their pre they were with someone for seven years previously and when you say well what did Dr so-and-so or what did

so-and-so have to say about this issue I didn't tell them okay all right I

wouldn't tell them I wouldn't tell them that right yeah but anyway  when a diabetic gets symptomatic and

that is a life can be a life-threatening thing right

they get more care all the way up to this and sometimes they eat the oh and

of course there are clients that they went to a wedding and had so much fun and they  figured out how much more

insulin they needed because gosh darn it I'm having cake and this and alcohol and this and that

but the substance abuse so they go all the way to the Intensive Care Unit they could have a leg amputated whatever

right long term yeah well, we know the consequences of untreated mental illness it could be

you're killing yourself every once in a great while or with addiction and every

once in a while you know alcohol every once in a while, I don't know the statistics it's not it's probably a lot

there's a lot of violence when someone is around someone that can be an angry

drinking person anyways I'll put the quote here's the quote

here's the quote so Dr Doug Bruce came to speak at Yale when I was working at Yale as a RN maybe I had my masters I

don't recall and he said in every other aspect of medicine  patience

get when they're symptomatic they get more care except addiction when they

become symptomatic we give them less care and I thought wow because I was on

the substance abuse unit and that stayed with me all the way to my first Masters

in forensic science I was  my internship was a deaf investigator and

they liked nurses they did because we would understand the medicines that were at the scene and a lot of stuff so

 the place you were working at and the yeah, I forgot oh right the place I

had I was working at was the ME’s office medical examiner’s office and we had to go to the crime scenes so one winter in

Connecticut there was so much snow that you know it was they were telling you on television they're getting rid of

homeless people have to go here, and you have to stay indoors that's how cold it was well somebody  went out drinking a

woman in a wheelchair went from her rehab it was an open unit I guess she

went out drinking so we get called that there is a woman frozen to death outside

of the rehab and when I got there, she had a sweatshirt over her head like that

that's how she froze to death, so you know at that point I was like you know I'm gonna go become a nurse practitioner

because I don't even like this job, I was around so Much Death so many hangings

from a doorknob children with they said oh John can you get the

blood out of the fingernails not when she has a onesie on or he no I can't the

adult who had his head chopped off because he got into a car accident and had the fence, I have no problem

you're an adult I don't have a problem I was sexually assaulted as an adult and

I told all my clients if you were molested your trauma is so much worse

than mine because I knew what was happening you don’t, and that confusion causes those clients way more

difficulty including if somebody doesn't validate them unfortunately as human beings if we're not validated, you're

part of the problem if you don't validate somebody you know move on after that we don’t, we shouldn't be validated

every day yeah no thank you for sharing that very  transparent intimate fortunately

that's actually the end of our time today that's okay  so we want to we

want to thank you for joining us on the Voices for Voices podcast and thank you

also to our guests the therapy twins Joan and Jane for spending some quality

time with us today wide-ranging topics I hope you enjoyed it and until next time

I am Justin Alan Hayes and I hope you have a great day and be a voice for you

or somebody in need [Music] [Applause]

[Music] thank you

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