The Voices for Voices Podcast Episode 43 with Guest, Art Therapy Icon, Dr. Judy Rubin
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now I founded Voices for Voices to provide a platform for folks that share
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all donations are 100 percent tax deductible today's guest is an American board
certified art therapist a licensed psychologist and PhD in counseling
psychology with over 50 years of experience working in private practice
she has taught courses spanning the world including in the United States of America at the Pittsburgh
psychoanalytic Institute and the University of Pittsburgh in the
department of psychiatry she has also written many articles books
lectures and films including books titled the art of art therapy and
approaches to Art therapy and also films titled art therapy has
many faces which is now subtitled and at least fourteen languages and a universal
language for healing today's guest Dr Judy Rubin is an
honorary life member of the American art Therapy Association and also it may be recognized as the art
lady from Mr. Rogers Neighborhood television show with Fred Rogers
and she is also the co-founder and president of the non-profit educational
organization expressive media Inc please join me in welcoming to the show
today Dr Judy Rubin thank you for joining us you're welcome thank you for inviting me
you bet so your name was how I how I
learned learn more about you one of our board members Heidi Larew she is a
supervising art therapist and she was speaking one day about Heroes of
hers that she looked up to throughout her career and your name came up and we
we spoke about it and thought it would be a great idea at least to reach out
because we know everybody's busy, and we weren't sure if it'd be possible to have
you join us for an episode but when submitted the request on your
website and got your feedback is just absolutely thrilled to have you
come and share your story and experiences with our audience which
is a television audience on our Hudson community television all of the audio
platforms Apple Google Spotify iHeart and as well as we do the transcripts so people
if that that's how they process information and if they have other
challenges that they can read through the transcript and then art
therapy for me started when I had a five-day inpatient
stay at our local hospital here at the Akron General Medical Center and
before that while also talking about the mental health issues and challenges I
have the art side of things I knew in my first 35 years of life I wasn't a
good artist and I equated R to having to be good at something to be recognized
for people to say you're good at our and so I never thought of myself as
an artist or somebody who like to do art, but I also recognize that I like to play
music and play guitar and once I learned that that is a form of Art in a form of
expression and seeing that singing earlier in in your career kind of start
starting out you integrated that with your practice I was
things started to really click in place, so I just want to thank you for everything you've done in in the art
therapy the mental health space over your career it's to know to be
able to speak to somebody that is that was at the Forefront of some of the methods that I experienced is awesome
so I just want to thank you for that it's been a great pleasure throughout
absolutely so first I just want to Maybe
cover about when you're earlier in your career and you decided that you
didn't like writing lesson plans and paddling and those things in the classroom it may have been thought of as
an outsider or like okay what is she doing what is her what is her strategy
how did how did that mindset come into in the play of your
philosophy with as it related to our that's an interesting question it is
true that I almost I would have been fired from the Cambridge Public Schools where I was an
art teacher and because I didn't want to use the
stencils that they wanted me to use with the children I thought it was not my
idea of creativity fortunately we were moving to Pittsburgh, and I had already submitted my
resignation so they didn't have to fire me in Pittsburgh you mentioned the paddle that was one of the issues that
got me in trouble I was called into the principal's office, and she said
um I understand that you're not using the paddle and I this is a wooden paddle This is 1959. a
long time ago and at that time a wooden paddle was actually in every classroom in the public schools of Pittsburgh
um and I said well I haven't needed to, and she said well you're undermining the
discipline of the other teachers I thought well
I obviously don't fit in this place the children loved art without question
children always do so it was a good time to decide to start a
family which I did and though I met Fred Rogers actually
through the person who invited me to do art therapy which I wasn't trained poor
and nobody was trained in 1963 so it's actually
excuse me 60 years that I've been
the woman who was for Fred's Mentor throughout his career until her death
Margaret McFarland invited me to work at the place where he was working and studying, and which was
run by the Child Development Department of the University of Pittsburgh which happened to be in the department of
Psychiatry which is pretty rare, and I was asked to work with the
school-aged children in art not so much teaching as providing a
space for them to find themselves and she said would you like to do art
therapy with the children in the hospital and I said oh I don't have any training I'm not a therapist and she
said well I will supervise you and she was a clinical child psychologist and I
thought oh well okay it sounded interesting, and I really fell in love
with it because as I mentioned I didn't fit so well into public school teaching any
at any rate in the late fifties but also working with these children who were
diagnosed schizophrenic was really challenging really challenging many of
them didn't have language or if they did it was very hard to understand they had many physiological orthopedic and other
challenges besides their mental health condition so I was fortunate that I could work
with each one individually and kind of feel my way and I read everything that was written
which wasn't a great deal at that point about art therapy but in that sense I
was very lucky because there was something really neat about being able to make it up as
you went along to discover in collaboration with the children
what was possible and so that became extremely exciting
fulfilling and I decided that's what I wanted to do great do you think kind of at the
early stage of your career that the restrictions at or I'll say yeah the
restrictions in public school could have been holding back some individuals who had that interest in art and art therapy
and that could have been a roadblock to some well you know it was a different era
um this school in Cambridge Massachusetts was different from the
school in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania they were in different kinds of neighborhoods, but children are children and
um I don't know that I would say the school was holding people back but, in the sense,
that the expectations were codified they were somewhat rigid
the curriculum was spelled out and part of my problem wasn't I added things I
didn't not follow the curriculum but I did add things that weren't in the curriculum, and I was criticized for that
too but one of the things I added I remember was slides of artwork
um which is how I had learned about art myself you know slides of famous artists
showing them to the children and my supervisor who incidentally was Andy Warhol’s supervisor
he was his teacher at the Pittsburgh Public Schools very nice guy but kind of rigid he came in and he saw me
showing the kids some slides he said that's not in the lesson in the curriculum why are you doing
it and the other crime I recall was that he
said I shouldn't be wearing flat shoes I should be wearing high heels
teachers had to wear dresses and high heels and that's what I mean it was a very different era
so I don't I think you're probably right that many children didn't reach their
potential they still don't unfortunately an awful lot of that depends on
the understanding and expectation of the teacher and how he or she deals with them but
yeah, it I guess you're right I certainly didn't feel like I could be myself
in that setting whereas in the setting of the Child Development departments
child study center where I worked with the kids after school and in the hospital where I worked with the
children individually I did feel as if I could be myself and so
I guess it wasn't just the children who were restricted yeah so how did how did that make you
feel when you were teaching art therapy when you're helping people just you
know now hopefully the society is turning we're able to talk about emotions a little bit
more and how that is affecting each other and individuals in society so
we have some of our audiences college students high school students
individuals you know looking at careers and some of them may be thinking
where should I go, what should I look for and so maybe if you can share you know how that made you feel and what
what brought you into our itself I understand that around the age of seventeen
there had been a traumatic situation the experience you had went through and
that I've kick-started are and so how
did that interest as a career maybe start for you that’s, so you've read something about
me or by me it's true when I was 17 a very close friend
died suddenly in an accident and I was devastated as were all of
our friends and I remember I was actually an arts and crafts
counselor at a camp that summer and I came home with my musician
friend who ended up being a musicologist and a composer
um for the funeral but I was numb I really couldn't process it was so
overwhelming and devastating to lose somebody our own age who had
been very healthy he had been the president of our senior class he was about to go off to the college that my
my daughter and my grandson ended up going to Swarthmore he had a lot of promise it was just awful so how to
process that when we got back to Camp, I remember that
we had a day off and we my friend and I went to the woods the
camp was in the woods as many summer camps are and she
took her notation book where she composed some music, and I decided I was
going to do a painting and I didn't have any idea what it was going to be but
and it ended up actually no doubt stimulated by being with her of somebody
at the piano playing but what I do know, and I didn't think of it
as therapy at the time is that I felt so much better when it was finished
um it's as if I couldn't talk about it in words, I couldn't process the trauma
in words but I could by painting I had always done art and been interested and
wanted to be an artist from the time I was very little, but it hadn't been such a personally
profound experience until that moment so yeah that probably you know I had never heard
the term art therapy until I was in graduate school studying to be a teacher so
um it took a while to put those things together but you're right and then there were
other times in my life have been other times when my own art has been very powerful
um you ask about the gratifications the gratifications of helping people change are
hard to put into words really truly I've written a lot of books it's true but
um I think one reason I started making films was to show people because like it's so hard to describe what is
essentially a non-verbal experience in words it loses too much in translation
so but seeing people change seeing a
little girl who couldn't sit still who was constantly going around and flapping
her hands and being agitated and saying things that people couldn't understand
seeing her calm down and work at the easel and tell people things about her
inner world that nobody knew because she didn't have the words to say
them that was astonishing so yeah, I think being the agent
of really transformation and also the challenges it was it was challenging
every child was different, and I had to as I said feel my way
but that was exciting to me that was I wasn't following a script or a lesson
plan I was following what was happening with the child and it was
very moving so yeah that's powerful I'm wondering if so, you know with
Athletics you know there's it's competition if somebody wins somebody loses somebody's record improves
somebody's record goes down by a loss I'm wondering if
now what you know do you have to be a competitive not only a competitive
person but somebody that's like okay at the end of the day what I produce has to be a world-class RPS versus as you
mentioned you know if they're if an individual is able to calm down Express themselves whatever that looks like it
might not be perfect and it doesn't have to be can you maybe just walk through that process of having to be competitive
in some areas and okay you know Justin's not doing good in this so he's
got to try something else can we just walk through that process a little bit for us well I think the one of the
real virtues of the Arts especially visual art and in the context of art
therapy there is no right or wrong there really isn't I mean you can’t
if you're you know if you're trying to compete by taking a test there's no wrong answer
and no right answer and also each person's work is so individual and
unique and that is really special in other words if you have a group of
people you give them the same materials to play with which I often use to do in workshops
just to play around with say colored pipe cleaners or something and see what happens that that kind of open-ended
invitation or call it plasticine which is an oil-based clay
everybody's is different really different so
in a way it almost negates competition sure people will look around probably
and think oh hers looks better than mine or mine looks better than his that's I
think people are naturally compare themselves to other people but in a funny sort of way because
there's no right or wrong all you the only person you need to
compare yourself with in art is yourself and that's the case in therapy too that
whatever is troubling somebody when they start out
that's their Baseline and then whatever happens hopefully
and they feel better in one area or another they feel good so they're not competing
with anybody except themselves in a funny sort of way I don't know if that's your question it
does and I'm glad you went into that detail because that's helpful and that's exactly how I felt and how I
feel that I'm working on a piece and whatever the outcome is it may what it
is what it is but it's that feeling inside how am I how am I feeling did
that 20 minutes or five minutes make me feel less stressed less anxiety or more
and to have it feel and my experience and many others had to have less anxiety
and be able to just Express themselves whatever that looks like so that that is
uh that's helpful and I'm glad you went into the detail now when we
talk about films I think that kind of does go hand in hand from the creative
sense to visual person to see somebody doing something versus you know maybe
just the radio of just listening to somebody to speak and talk about something or pages in a book well those
are those are helpful when you had and when you do work on
Creative pieces films when you were asked to you know by Fred to be
in front of the camera on Mr. Rogers neighborhood was that a natural progression for you where the camera
wasn't it was a camera, but it wasn't like oh my gosh it's the camera it's just more okay this is what I like to do
and this is going to help me Express what I'm doing to the audience and the camera is just there to follow that
well I was on Fred's program Mr. Rogers Neighborhood between 1966 and 1969. so the cameras in
those days were huge, massive they had to roll them in and
the mics were overhead okay and
and in fact one of my funny memories from doing the show is that the person who I was too
vain to wear my glasses but it was a very large space and at the far end of
this very large space it was the entire basement of a building where the original QED Studio was
somebody would hold up my segment wasn't scripted we it was ad-libbed so
when it was almost time to wind up, he would hold up a sign saying you know three minutes two minutes whatever
and since I couldn't see it, Fred would kick me under the table, so I knew it was
almost time to I said Oh Mr. Rogers I need to go so actually I didn't want to do it to be
honest with you I resisted it we worked together as I say at this place where they were studying Child
Development that's where he learned a lot about how children really are and
think and feel and I would observe him through a one-way observation mirror he would come and watch me work and when
when I was leaving to have my third child, he said by the way I'm going to be
doing a television program I'd like you to come on and be an art lady and I said oh don't be silly I I'm not a performer
and he said that's why I want you because you're not a performer, so he wanted at that point somebody real and
natural so that was a relief, but I said I'll be nursing this new baby I won't I
won't be able to I'm going to take a leave of absence from the place we
worked and he said oh that's no problem just the tapings are only three
hours long and you can nurse the baby before and after
and I kept I really did keep saying no and then I get a whole bunch of scripts in the mail, so I called
him up and I Said Fred you're not hearing me, and he said look I want you just to try it just try it and what I
what he asked me to do was interesting he would send me the script which had a theme usually in
the neighborhood of Make-Believe segment and the at-home segment which was before
and after the neighborhood segments you may remember, and I would be part of the at-home
segment usually once I went to the neighborhood and it would but there would be a theme and I was asked to
think about what children between I think he figured three and seven he thought was his audience but children
between three and seven could do with inexpensive art materials related to that theme and so I would
have my kids and the neighborhood kids come into my kitchen or backyard and we would they would do art on the theme
whatever it was and then I would bring it in and show him and he would ask questions about
what how old was the artist and when he or she say and then he would say well
why don't we do something together and he would invite me to join him in an art
activity so in a way we were subtly modeling how to talk about children's art how to think
about it but also how to be playful and creative when we and really it was
playing whatever the theme was we never planned anything in advance it
really was spontaneous so it was fun and after the first
try I said okay I see what you mean it is sort of fun and he's the person who
actually got me to make my first film which was about multiply disabled blind
children and I was working with these kids at the school for the Blind and I said nobody's
ever going to believe me when I tell him tell them how creative they are because these kids were not like the normal
blind children they had other disabilities many others and
um in fact the people at the school warned me that they wouldn't be able to do
anything and of course they were, and he said well you have to make a film you
just have to and I said I don't know anything about filmmaking, and he said well you must know someone with a camera
I called up the guy at Children's Hospital who had been making slides so I
could give talks on Art therapy slides of artwork and he said oh great we just bought a 16-millimeter camera we
could only do black and white and it doesn't have sound, but we'd be thrilled to go there so they came over I got a
little bit of bunny from my father pay for developing the film and that was
my first film and it was it was quite dramatic when I showed it at a conference that even though I'd
written an article about that program seeing the kids
hearing the kids actually be creative
it was something you couldn't put into words, so wow yeah thank you for sharing
that experience with us for you know the individuals looking at
careers or maybe they're in their career and they've done things one way maybe it's almost like one way of their
whole life or they were they were taught one way or one thing about maybe five topics there they've only done one
and when they're asked to reach outside that one thing it's like oh my gosh, I can't do that it's
uncomfortable can you maybe speak to how you were taking
your experience teaching our and doing that and showcasing expressing
that in a different way when you move to film versus just the classroom or
just the conference you're speaking at and how important that is to maybe try new things
well you there's a lot of questions embedded in your question pick one yeah
tackle it's one that I think has to do with
what do you do to help somebody to be creative so that they even if they feel like most adults and
adolescents even feel oh I can't do that I'm not good at Art you know it's
threatening part of it is explaining how it will help you to help them
if they can try this other way of expressing themselves but also, it's
creating an atmosphere which is partly physical and partly psychological
and creating a space where people feel comfortable
trying things out and you know again that's a hard thing to
to do people find different ways depending on their personalities and I think each
therapist has to find their own way of working I know that I worked with many
many different kinds of people over my career I worked first in a clinic then in a psychiatric hospital
um and then later in private practice and seeing people from children to
um Elders which I am now but I wasn't then anyway and seeing people in school settings
Hospital settings rehab but the point is the way I was a different
person I think or I used different parts of myself in relating to each of these
people and I think the challenge of helping someone feel
comfortable which is really what you're getting at expressing themselves
is to this is an awkward way to put it but to tune in who they are and what
what do they want what are they struggling with what are they why are they there and
you're too young to know remember when you had to
find radio stations on the dial by moving the dial around until you tuned
into the right frequency I don't know that I think there's no digital analog
to that because with digital you connect automatically but when it when it was
analog you had to find the frequency and in a funny sort of way when you work with people you have to sort of find the
frequency whether it's an individual or a group or even a setting
um so as I say I the other thing that
really is important and what you were asking is expectations
I started programs in a lot of places for people with disabilities
blind deaf cognitively impaired and so forth and
what I found was that the expectations were so low on the part
of and the part of the people who are actually working with them at the time when they would invite me in to do a
pilot programs like at a place then in sixty-seven called the home for crippled children it
is now the Children's Institute but it was mostly residential, and they had
about two hundred kids and they presented me with a list of ten names for the pilot art program and I said ten out of two hundred
right and they said oh and they had a long list of reasons why these other kids wouldn't be able to participate
both physical and cycle you know mental, and I said well
if it's okay with you I'd like to really just assess each child and see
what's possible and you won't be surprised that they were all able to participate it was a matter of making
adaptations so that they could do so if they weren't able to use their hands
to hold a brush you know you could put it in the mouth or the feet and so on
if they couldn't get to the art room you could have somebody travel around and
work at the bedside so again it's a sort of a creative
challenge a creative thinking challenge but not really that hard as common sense
making an adaptation so that it's possible for somebody who can or cannot do something to do it
right and then and then I pardon me for going on so long but I
think if you are convinced that everybody is creative, and I really am
I don't know that you can teach that, but I really truly believe it
then they get that message and the expectation of the adult working
with whoever a person of any age it has a powerful
impact on what they're able to do yeah it really does and the approach and
experience you just shared I think is powerful because well maybe the therapy
and one person's eye should be catered towards ten students in your eyes it was
let's see where everybody's at because everybody's going to have some ability
to do art and isn't that what we should really be
should we be doing and so when programs now at that schools you know
they're cutting programs and moving things around sometimes the Arts is one of one of the programs that goes
unfortunately can you speak to just the importance of it we've talked about it a lot, but you know for
each individual not just okay well this is only going to affect you know ten
percent of our students so they can go elsewhere you know those that type of
think versus why don't why don't we include everybody in let them decide
at the next level if that's something that is interesting to them and then if there's a therapeutic need then you're
able to have that as you call that Baseline already
um there's no question that the Arts have often been the first to go when budgets need to be cut because they're
thought of as Frills not necessary not the core of learning and however
fortunately as you mentioned before people are getting more comfortable with
the idea of mental health and people talking about psychological problems feelings fears and so forth talking
about going to see therapists counselors coaches whatever they call them it's
it's become more acceptable is during I would say the last 10 years
actually there's been a growing awareness among non-art therapists but people in
neuropsychic for example neuropsychology that not only creating and doing but even
viewing or in music attending being a
spectator at a dance or a musical performance is also therapeutic in very
real sense and they've started to measure some of those effects
um again because of the advances in neurological Imaging we can actually
now demonstrate that what people in the creative arts therapies have observed
all along actually happens people really do not only feel better they get better
um they need fewer medications for example fewer doctor's visits I mean there's a whole bunch of studies and the
World Health Organization just adopted a large effort to include all of the Arts
in their I forget what the name of it is but the I know that it's happening in many
parts of the world it isn't just the United States Veterans Administration is catching on
so slowly but surely people are beginning to recognize that the Arts are not only good
or fostering creativity but they actually help people feel more confident
learn creative problem solving and do better in sort of other academic areas in other
words math English social studies can be enhanced when the Arts
and we're beginning to be able to demonstrate that so hopefully that will
I don't know what the statistics are right now, but I do know there's more Community Arts activity around the
country and that's good unfortunately the Arts are very helpful when people
have traumas and there's a lot of trauma in our world as you know so
um the Arts therapies have been growing I think in part because they meet a need
because again when people are traumatized even if they're normally quite articulate they don't have words
to deal with what happened yeah so to take a
tangential look at the at books so one
of the areas that you have dedicated time is writing and being an author
can you maybe walk through not so much the process of the writing but
what you were looking to get at was it the to reach more people which I
would think at some level to expand your breath of what
you're able to do of you know being able to you know to do films to do talks
do lectures and then to be able to you know put that in the book form which
many books don't have as many visual appealing pictures in it as my
four-year-old daughter would say is like this isn't a book this this doesn't have any pictures in it so what is what
is this how am I supposed to go about it and I know she's learning but maybe just your outlook of when
when that those projects came about well to be honest
um I did not start out intending to write but
very early some I gave a talk somewhere oh I
think it was actually the first art therapy conference the very first of the American art Therapy Association which
is the national professional association was held in 1970 and a lot I just I was
working at a Child Guidance Center and that was doing work with mothers and children in a joint group
where they met jointly occasionally and then separately and jointly
um a social worker met with the mothers I met with the kids and then we would get together periodically with everybody
and then process it so it was a different sort of format, and I decided I
would present something about that work and the editor of the then only journal
in our therapy came up to me after the talk and said I'd like to publish that
do you have it in writing I had just written some notes and sort of had this
I said well I guess I could put it I could type it out because this was the
age of the typewriter there were no computers then and she said yes, I'd really like that
and it was called the bulletin of art therapy and so I did write up we had a group in the clinic
and I was doing groups on with a similar format in the community at Nursery
schools and churches and things like that and then having written it out in Eleanor almond
published it I heard the next year from a colleague
who was working in Los Angeles in a similar Child Guidance Center she said oh I've tried that method with my
patients here in Los Angeles and it really works well, and I thought oh okay
so that's the value of writing is you can share ideas in a way that
you can I mean how many places can you give a talk you know at least more
people were reading the journal at that point or the bulletin of art therapy so that that's actually what got me started
was the idea that writing was a way of sharing and inspiring others and
I guess that's true for film too I mean it's a way of telling and I really do feel that I was very
lucky to find the field of art therapy it just suited me in a way that the
teaching hadn't and so
I think there's a missionary component actually certainly my recent work with
expressive media has been creating a film library with lots of films not I
haven't made them all by any means made by other people also showing their work
showing how people actually interact during art therapy
um because it's hard for students to see that nowadays to observe anyway so it is an almost
Evangelical because I really believe in it it's so remarkably helpful
yeah, and I think this talks about another issue is well not an issue but a
topic that treating a child in
Pittsburgh Pennsylvania versus treating a child in Los Angeles California it's a
it's Universal you know the Arts it's not you know a niche or only a
certain geography I would think that that was helpful as you mentioned when
you were talking with your colleague at that point that okay that the writings are helping broaden that reach but
then getting that validation that okay you know that's working on the all
the way on the other coast next to Pacific Ocean that this has it has that
Universal approach that world approach and maybe that's led to some of your
your work overseas and being able to travel and being you know in demand over the over the years
I enjoy traveling I did I can't travel Much Anymore
um because I have various disabilities at this point myself but
it's you know traveling to other cultures you really do learn a tremendous amount and I should also add
that you learn more from your patients clients than from any books or films in
my opinion that's where the real learning but I love to travel I found it fascinating to learn
obviously, I was interested in the visual arts in any culture but also, I do love
music, dance, and drama so it's been I've been very lucky
um to have been able to teach and I guess
every continent and my grandchildren recently said how many countries have you been to
Nana and I said I never counted we were sitting around a dinner table
and they started to count, and it was fifty. wow even I didn't realize it was that many I
mean it's over a number of years but so it was it was fun
um interesting enriching for me and I think that's the other thing
about this work that it really it it's not only it's satisfying gratifying
um and you learn so much you learn a lot about yourself too
and I can concur being an instructor to marketing students at Walsh
University that I learned a lot from them as students that
there's only so much maybe a textbook can cover but by sharing my life experiences that opens them up to share
their life experiences or things that they're going through at the time, and I think just having that
that mindset that you know we can always learn what no matter what age whether
you're an instructor teaching and the students I'm teaching the students you
know while we are in the sense the instructor and we're going to be grading
and evaluating their work we're also human beings so we you know we have that
element that I think are really ties together so much is that that communication that it can be you know
through you know through film through the spoken word through pictures through
sounds and I know there may be other areas other industries that that do that as well
but I think that R is one of the most powerful you know languages or areas
that that touches every aspect if you know we're in the car we can turn
on you know the radio or for the back seat a movie or a seminar or be in
a classroom and all those types of things all those are pieces of art I
think maybe some people they get restricted based off of maybe what they what they hear that might be selective
it's but once I think if they would hear and say like oh wow all these aspects
are kind of like when I came to came to my senses to understand that okay
music and playing an instrument that is a form of Art and then also being able
to do the you know adult coloring books and the mandalas and all those
things of saying okay well I do like that I don't know I don't know why but
it makes me feel that it makes my brain a little bit less stressed and so maybe that extra one percent of not being
stressed does to your point help do other tasks and I think that's that
there's so much that can be said about you know the over stimulated mind and the overstimulated Brain especially
now and to have an ability to free up a little bit of that I think is very
powerful yeah, I agree with you that right now we're living in a hyper stimulating
world and especially not this kind of
an internet interaction but what normally transpires on the internet with people
bouncing from one app to another one social media platform to another
um communication is fragmented and there's one of the Arts I think are
one of the few ways that you can get into an altered state of
consciousness which is not what happens when you're playing on the computer that's a different kind of addiction
when you're in Facebook or whatever clicking on things but when you
start painting or listening to music it you really do get into an altered
state which I believe is people talk about meditation the Arts
are very old human beings have used all art forms all
the way back as far as we know at least in recorded history and some history recorded on Cave walls
so there's evidence for how important the Arts are to human beings
and many cultures value them more than ours but I think we're beginning to get
there yeah or to renew that so what keeps you sharp because you
you have a ton of knowledge I wish I had the memory that that you have at a at
Forty-one what could what keeps
you sharp is it the different forms of R is it a combination of things that
you don't have to get into huge detail but you to be able to share the things
that happen 40 50 60 years that's that in itself without looking at you know
the why that that's powerful in a sense and I I'm just I'm just curious so
maybe some things that maybe I can do and as I as I my daughter
already thinks I'm old she's like you have a four in your age but it's like but I also have a one after it you have
a just the four in in your age
yeah, keep playing that guitar and you said you were doing some artwork it was
it sculpting painting drawing more coloring with the colored pencils yeah
in the adult coloring book which has been shown to be extremely relaxing well
what you know we were talking about how hyper our era is you need to relax and you
need I would say the other thing we need that maybe helps is getting out in nature
um I think that's really important I think one of the problems with our society is
that we've lost touch in most areas with the natural world and
you know art I mean Clay comes from the ground
you dig it out of the pigments for paint and come from different plants the
Arts wouldn't be possible without the natural world and it's the natural world that at least until recently has
inspired most artwork over the ages so but I think there's something very powerful about the beauty
of the natural world which I find personally very soothing a sunset is almost as good
as a Symphony it's a different kind of symphony but
um yeah, I remember when my parents they came back from Hawaii and they
mentioned you know just the sights and the cliffs and looking at the sunsets
and the sunrises saying you know this is you know this is the closest you know
the world has that you know to Heaven they felt close and connected and
when I went with my wife when we got married on our honeymoon, I felt much the same and not that it has to be
Hawaii but just that getting out in nature and looking at things and somebody doesn't have to travel
thousands of miles to see that they can go to their local park they can sit on
their deck and see the stars at night or the Sun or the or the Moon
yeah, I'd forgotten this but once I was teaching a course and I had to give the kids an exam at the end, and I was in
Vermont in a beautiful part of Vermont and they said okay you've asked us a
lot of questions now can we ask you a question I said oh sure go ahead
um they said who's your favorite artist and I said oh my gosh I like so many artists I'm writing through all the
things I had I don't have a favorite and then I looked around and I said no
actually I do have one mother nature yeah and I really, I think I do believe that
so expressive media that is it has been a passion of yours how did you decide
that you wanted to form the be part of the organization and continue you
know sharing you know through the Arts the forms of Art I mentioned that I worked in a clinic
I worked at a psychiatric hospital and finally decided my friend who's a drama
therapist and I who worked together on many things had made films we had both
made films and had made films together we decided we wanted to leave the hospital and do full-time Private
Practice because we were able to start that as faculty and that was so satisfying, and the hospital was getting
more and more restrictive in its rules and regulations and I wasn't very good at Administration I didn't like the part
of the job so we had made a bunch of films and we had
shot some videotapes of us doing art and drama therapy and we were told we couldn't have they couldn't give
them to us until unless we formed a non-profit so overnight, we formed
something called expressive media so we could because our friends and colleagues
we’re borrowing these films already they were 16-millimeter films later we had
them converted to VHS tapes and then DVDs so that's how it started out of a
necessity because we wanted people to be able to learn from the teaching films we've made and
so and then it grew like top you know as things do and when I made the film you
mentioned art therapy as many faces or the universal language for healing which
is better around the world I asked for contributions from lots of people
and I saw these some really beautiful, wonderful films that were gonna you know
they get lost after a while especially educational films they don't hang around very well
and I thought it's a shame other people could learn from these so that's when I got the idea of a film Library a
streaming film Library so that's what we're doing right now and hope hopefully that
will be successful and will help to train a lot of people and inform Inspire yeah and I can't think of another word
you are a true humanitarian somebody that likes at their core likes to help
people I think that some is a is a good way that everything we've touched on is
at the core of your you're trying to help somebody you're trying to help somebody feel better do something they
might not have tried and in in this even starting expressing media out of
a necessity I think that still Rings true that you want to help people you want to help have
content that's available shareable and I just want to thank you for your
time for joining us today it was it's been an absolute pleasure and treat
to see you speak with you listen to you and that we just hope you have
continued success and enjoy what you like to do and I it's a really real
pleasure thank you and I wish you all the success in the world it's been fun thank
you I'm gonna close out with a little bit of the end of the on a teleprompter and then if you can smile for a couple
pictures on the camera and should I look at the green light on my computer
yeah, yeah so, I'll finish this up
and then we'll do the pictures so thank you also to our audience our
viewers our listeners our readers for joining and tuning in to this episode of
the Voices for Voices podcast and a super special guest today, Dr Judy Rubin
for spending a lot of her time with us today it's been an absolute treat and
pleasure and I hope you feel the same so until next time I am Justin Alan
Hayes have a great day and be a voice for you or somebody in need
[Music] [Applause] [Music] thank you
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